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Original: 7/10/2006 11:17 AM
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Monday, July 10, 2006

 

Pursuing Truth About Nature -- But Only So Far

A warning about this interview right here: 

If you want to persist in the idea that Intelligent Design is just warmed-over creationism, or that its adherents are dolts, or that "real science" makes a mockery of it,  or that it doesn't pose a fascinating scientific question -- don't listen to it with an open mind.

I've had a chance to talk with William Dembski a few times, and I've also, on several occasions, debated/interviewed reps with the people behind this magazine, which represents the opposing view.  I'm sympathetic to both, strangely, because I think Dembski is brilliant, and I'm every bit as skeptical -- moreso, actually -- than the people behind Skeptic.

(I should note that personally, I am -- putting it gently -- not a fan of the creationist leaders whom Dembski mentions here who are attacking his views.  I think they've done, and continue to do, much damage.  That's another post.)

Whatever you think of the debate, I.D. is hardly the argument of yokels, despite op-ed writers' attempts to press I.D. into their usual self-affirming narratives.  And Sherer himself says I.D. has a place in science classroom discussion.

The debate may not change your mind.  After all, if you've defined science to include design that might be from aliens from outer space, but to exclude design by a Designer -- well, the question is certainly decided, then and there.  Case closed.

By this definition, of course, you've also effectively said, "If the truth about nature is otherwise -- outside my definition of science -- then I will not scientifically learn from this truth about nature, however beneficial it might be to our understanding."  -- an unseemly sort of thing, I would think, for one with an open mind. 

Dembski rightly notes that I.D. principles are already widely-used in pursuits like forensics, archaeology, and the SETI program.  His worthy opponent, Michael Sherer, notes that he, Shermer, would entertain the idea -- and scientists do, frustrated to account for design, here -- that aliens from outer space may have designed life on earth.  But, he says, we cannot consider the possibility of this different kind of extra-terrestrial intelligence. 

And we mustn't allow that possibility -- in the interest of an open mind, you understand.

Again, Chesterton:  Odd that one is said to be closed-minded for allowing that miracles are possible, while the "free-thinker" has decided, without proof, that they are not.

 Posted 7/10/2006 11:17 AM - 154 Views - 8 eProps - 7 comments

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Visit DougHannah's Xanga Site!
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
Posted 7/10/2006 2:49 PM by DougHannah - reply

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I can never get enough of Chesterton. Will be adding that to my quote arsenal. Now, off to read the article...
Posted 7/10/2006 6:41 PM by sethward - reply

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Again, this is right up the line of my biggest frustrations when trying to have an IC (intelligent conversation) with people who believe differently than I do...  "The real answer is anything which excludes your answer!"  But other than that we are extremely tolerant and inclusive.
Posted 7/11/2006 11:15 AM by RevJeffreyNE Xanga True Member - reply

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Fascinating, Brant. This is basically my introduction to the cutting-edge of the debate. When I was a practicing Christian, I was up on all of the pop-Christian evidence against evolution, but have since limited my thoughts on the matter to the simple formula that Francis Schaeffer used to crystallize what is absurd about the denial of a creator: the impersonal + time + chance = everything. Ironically, the religious part of me would like to deny God and work on accepting the inevitability of my eventual decomposition, but reason will not permit me to embrace the formula that must then explain how all of this came to be. I don't normally go past that point.

So it was really cool hearing two really intelligent guys discuss this. By the end of the interview, it was clear that Shermer had nothing, not counting several points conceded by Dembski. Shermer made his most forceful attempt to nick Dembski in the realm of theology, of all things (an atheist telling a Christian that he should have a higher opinion of his God?), which highlighted his total lack of substantive rebuttal to Dembski's scientific position. It is beyond me how it was in Shermer's interest to insist (smugly) that Dembski's God was denigrated by Dembski's ascribing to him (but not limiting him to) the qualities of an engineer.

I didn't take from Shermer's extra-terrestrial comments exactly what you did--I thought he was saying that it didn't matter whose "design" it was (even if it were an alien life-form from another planet), the creation would have to have been done using the same set of forces and laws of physics as everything else in our known system--and that science wouldn't know "what to do" with the designer even if it were assumed to exist. (A decent point, unless you bring in the social impact of tossing out the basis for the belief in the inherent value of human life.) What struck me was the arrogance of his assumption that current science knows all of the possible forces that can be exerted by a designer/creator--that the creator would be limited to the tools that we know about. That really seemed to be overreaching.

Thanks for the opportunity to think about this for a couple of days!
Posted 7/11/2006 10:12 PM by toddhawkins - reply

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...and thanks for listening to it, and making me think about it again.  A bit of follow-up, before I pose an unrelated question:

I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about this issue, really.  But I think culture is fascinating, and I think the way the conscience works in how people think about this is fascinating.  I understand entirely your seeming religious vs. reason inversion, and totally identify with it.  Nicely put.

I believe Shermer says Dembski's approaches would be "science" if Dembski merely definitively ascribed design to E.T., instead of any kind of divinity.  Both Dembski and Shermer referenced Dr. Crick's attempt to do just that, Shermer approvingly.

I really expected Shermer to win this, and decisively, since I found the link on Skeptic's front page.  They're rather up-front about mocking I.D., and this debate is far from decisive in their advantage, in mild terms.

Your point about Shermer's final attempts at advising Dembski about who God really is -- that's right on.  It was bizarre.  Flailing, even.  I can imagine someone who shares Shermer's viewpoint cringing during that.  The sudden illogic was...strange...from a guy who's clearly very thoughtful.

So, Todd -- far more interesting question, or, at least, potential answer from you.  No wrong answers, here: 

What's a "practicing Christian"?

Posted 7/12/2006 5:51 PM by branthansen - reply

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I can't bring myself to call myself a non-Christian, because I haven't, even in my mind, entirely repudiated any of the essentials of Christian belief. I haven't embraced any non-Christian religions or atheism. But I respect Christianity too much to call myself a Christian. My perspective on Christianity is that of an observer, not a participant. It's convenient for me to draw the line that divides the old me from the new me based upon my actions and priorities, which are not Christ-centered. I am not "practicing" any of the disciplines or rituals of a believer, so I need to put myself in a different category. A "practicing Christian" has a solid core of Christian belief that form the basis for his priorities and actions.
Posted 7/13/2006 9:43 AM by toddhawkins - reply

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Between me and you, in the near-privacy of this blog...

I don't care for the word "Christian", myself, so I don't tend to use it.  I'm not sure what value it has, because of the ramifications political and cultural, and frankly, I don't understand the word's relationship to the church environment I was raised in.   (This isn't to say someone else shouldn't use it, I'm just explaining why I don't care to use it, myself.  Sometimes it's a useful shorthand, I admit.)

And, between you and me, in church terms, at this point in my life, I don't feel like I fit in, anywhere.  Not because I'm better, but because they haven't opened a non-denominational gathering on the Island of Misfit Toys.

Your background will allow memory of the guy (Roman soldier?) who comes to Jesus begging for help, "Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief!" -- that guy.  That's my guy.  That Jesus' response is positive?  -- major sigh of relief, here. 

Posted 7/13/2006 11:40 AM by branthansen - reply


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